Propane Tanks

Sweeney

Administrator
I am not the biggest fan of winter camping, but I have braved the cold on a few occasions. The biggest challenge is that firewood has become expensive due to restrictive campground wood policies, and managing the fire can be demanding, though I do enjoy it to some extent. There are times, however, when I just want a simple solution, and it's tempting to rely on propane flames and heaters.

Keeping a side-room tent or ice-fishing hut warm is nearly as good as being outside, and these setups are ideal for heaters like Mr. Heater. The downside is that they rely on 1-pound propane cylinders. While you can get adapters to run them off 20-pound tanks (or any propane tank size, including the 10-pound tanks we have), this adds complexity since you'll have to carry additional propane tanks along with the heater. Until now, I've been buying 1-pound cylinders, but on high settings, I can go through two cylinders in just a couple of hours, which can get expensive. $12 for 2 pounds which is nearly what it costs for me to refill a 20 pounder.

Last week, I attended an RV trade show where Mr Heater and Flame King were set up, and they both sell a similar prodduct --- refillable 1 pound cylenders. Theoretically, can can refill the green ones -- but there are problems with that, and for safety concerns I've made the decision that it isn't worth the risk....

looking at Flame King and the Fuel Keg, I chose the fuel keg, bougt the kit with 1 bottle and added 3 more empties to the cart --- for around $110 bucks. This should pay for itelf reasonably quickly. The link to the master-kit is below --- its is NOT an affiliate link, I make nothing off of this.

The instructions are clear, and the system worked very well -- filling a cylender takes aboute 60-90 seconds, and is tool less. The FLame King has been around longer, but requires a allen key to open the fill valve -- the Mr Heater Fuel Keg is 100% tool free...it just has a twist valve on the canister which opens easily.

Things I immediately noticed:

1. The tanks themselves are heavier, their walls are much thicker than those of the green cans.
2. The refilling process is simple and fast. Following the instructions takes only a few moments to set up. The stand occupies significantly less space than the Flame King stand, although the Flame King stand is taller. The Fuel Keg system requires the cylinder to be suspended from the edge of a table, but this is not a major issue.
3. While filling the canister, a valve remains open, allowing some propane gas to vent into the air. Although it isn't a large quantity, it does produce a noticeable odor. I can imagine that if this were done in an open campground, it might raise concerns among people nearby.
4. KEEP IT AWAY FROM FLAMES WHILE FILLING. Safety, safety, safety. This is probably my only real concern.

But I was impressed with how fast, affordable, and convenient it all is. If you don't want to pay $6 for 1 lb of propane -- this system is well worth the money.



 
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That’s a really great solution!

Note that the one-use cylinders are not rated by DOT for refilling, and, can only be refilled to maybe 65% if one decides to take the risk. No thanks!

It’s ridiculous though; over the last 5 years orso the price of one-use cylinders locally has gone from 3/$10, to 3/$12, to 2/$10, now 2/$12 and you can expect $8 at camp convenience markets or hardware stores.

THE most expensive way to buy energy, I think.

Locally a Blue Rhino 20lb. exchange cylinder is $20, which is not really $1/lb because it’s usually about 16-17lbs, perhaps $1.20/lb. In the northwest I have at least 2 gas stations with bulk propane within a mile, at $2.99/gal. At about 4.2lbs/gal I’m paying 71¢/lb!

So @Sweeney is getting some great savings, as are people running heaters from 5, 11, or 20lb cylinders. I see lots of people cooking with 5lb refillable cylinders, I guess one would get you through a couple nights with a propane tent heater…
 
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That's another thing, these cylinders are DOT certified. I don't think there's any way the Gestapo could figure out you had somehow refilled them. But, honestly, thats not the issue to me. They are not refillable for a reason, and if I did -- and something bad happened...thats "on me"

I didn't weight my kegs, but I know the method they use is that you stop filling once you see the white cloud come from the vent. That exactly how the 20lb are known to be full, so I am assuming they are at maximum capacity. I am a little curious about the show they keep from 'overfilling' if some idiot just stood there holding the valve for a few more minutes. I suspect that equilibrium is rached and it just doens't allow overfilling. Not sure.

What I can say is these tanks are very havey when empty. No doubt they are of FAR more dourable metal.

I didn't do a before/after weight, I should have. I will do a "full" then empty weight --- because more important than how much you put in, is how much comes out. My WeberQ and Mr Buddy will both probably get more use --- I love both but hate the cost. Especailly as we are blasting into single digit temperatures - my office is on the far end of the house with 2 exterior walls -- I'll wager I'll go through a few pounds this week :D
 
Yes, I didn’t mean to imply the refillables weren’t certified, I very much agree that DOT certification is important! I think Canada is a little stricter in their regs.

Now I’m curious too about how full my local gas stations are filling my 11 and 20lb tanks! Idle curiosity because I’m paying by the gallon…

One other safety note: Mr. Heater says the Buddy heaters are safe for indoor use in a ventilated area when supplied from 1lb cylinders. I suspect that’s because the larger cylinders can vent gas at the valve.
 
Propane expands and contracts a lot with temperature. About 1.5% for every 10 degrees Fahrenheit. The base temperature is 60F. If you fill a tank to 80% at 90F it will read closer to 84.5. And if you do the same at 40F it will read about 77%. And if both tanks cool or warm to 60F both will be 80% full.

Professional filling stations have meters that adjust for this automatically. I’m not sure if these home fill kits have that. I have a 250 gallon tank to fill 20 pound tanks. The guy that set it up told me not to fill tanks if it’s colder than 60F because my nozzle isn’t temperature compensating.
 
Propane expands and contracts a lot with temperature. About 1.5% for every 10 degrees Fahrenheit. The base temperature is 60F. If you fill a tank to 80% at 90F it will read closer to 84.5. And if you do the same at 40F it will read about 77%. And if both tanks cool or warm to 60F both will be 80% full.

Professional filling stations have meters that adjust for this automatically. I’m not sure if these home fill kits have that. I have a 250 gallon tank to fill 20 pound tanks. The guy that set it up told me not to fill tanks if it’s colder than 60F because my nozzle isn’t temperature compensating.
Hmmm. Are you cautioning @Sweeney on filling the Flame King from the Campinn tank (or say, a spare 20# tucked in the back of the TV)
when in below 60 cold temps?

That for would be the shoulder season with occasional snow scenario when its most handy...

ya bring 2-4 flame kings full up from home
but if ya need to refill to keep the Gazebo or something else tucked over galley, to cook and eat, hang out awhile.
or
a side tent for
dogs mud room, the boondock camp she-potty, or shower tent heated up warm enuff on a long weekend...say, once a day...

And
assuming you go thru one an hour to keep the chill off in the tent.

I like the simplicity of the 1 gals on the Mr Buddy but really hate to discard bottles.

The Mr Heater keg is an even simpler replacement, with no key to lose.

Did we ever get a final answer on that long thread for "fittings to reliably connect a hose to side port and a Mr Buddy" to tap the gas lines and tank on tongue? That confused me so much I just am sticking to 1 gal, although it seems like moar schtuff...

Following your experiment with great interest, @Sweeney
 
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…Did we ever get a final answer on that long thread for "fittings to reliably connect a hose to side port and a Mr Buddy" to tap the gas lines and tank on tongue? That confused me so much I just am sticking to 1 gal, although it seems like moar schtuff...
If I recall @Steve and Karen and I were both eventually successful with connecting Buddy heaters to the propane ports on our CIs. There were a few things to figure out… the mysterious one was that to connect to the cylinder port on the heater the hose fitting must have a schrader valve core screwed in it. Which was new info, because stoves and grills would *not* work if the valve was installed.

Lots more details in the thread…

Edit:
And here was Cary’s explanation of the challenges of schrader valves and various gas appliances. Och.
 
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Hmmm. Are you cautioning @Sweeney on filling the Flame King from the Campinn tank (or say, a spare 20# tucked in the back of the TV)
when in below 60 cold temps?

That for would be the shoulder season with occasional snow scenario when its most handy...

ya bring 2-4 flame kings full up from home
but if ya need to refill to keep the Gazebo or something else tucked over galley, to cook and eat, hang out awhile.
or
a side tent for
dogs mud room, the boondock camp she-potty, or shower tent heated up warm enuff on a long weekend...say, once a day...

And
assuming you go thru one an hour to keep the chill off in the tent.

I like the simplicity of the 1 gals on the Mr Buddy but really hate to discard bottles.

The Mr Heater keg is an even simpler replacement, with no key to lose.

Did we ever get a final answer on that long thread for "fittings to reliably connect a hose to side port and a Mr Buddy" to tap the gas lines and tank on tongue? That confused me so much I just am sticking to 1 gal, although it seems like moar schtuff...

Following your experiment with great interest, @Sweeney
No not really. Maybe if he filled it in the Artic and then took it to Death Valley.
Hmmm. Are you cautioning @Sweeney on filling the Flame King from the Campinn tank (or say, a spare 20# tucked in the back of the TV)
when in below 60 cold temps?

That for would be the shoulder season with occasional snow scenario when its most handy...

ya bring 2-4 flame kings full up from home
but if ya need to refill to keep the Gazebo or something else tucked over galley, to cook and eat, hang out awhile.
or
a side tent for
dogs mud room, the boondock camp she-potty, or shower tent heated up warm enuff on a long weekend...say, once a day...

And
assuming you go thru one an hour to keep the chill off in the tent.

I like the simplicity of the 1 gals on the Mr Buddy but really hate to discard bottles.

The Mr Heater keg is an even simpler replacement, with no key to lose.

Did we ever get a final answer on that long thread for "fittings to reliably connect a hose to side port and a Mr Buddy" to tap the gas lines and tank on tongue? That confused me so much I just am sticking to 1 gal, although it seems like moar schtuff...

Following your experiment with great interest, @Sweeney
I’m just repeating some properties of propane that I read. I really don’t have much experience with expansion other than if I fill a home tank in cold weather it never reads 80% when cold. I have three 1,000 gallons tanks, two 500 gallon, one 250 gallon and one 420 pound tank plus a dozen or so 20-100 pounders. Plus of course two little CI tanks.
 
If I recall @Steve and Karen and I were both eventually successful with connecting Buddy heaters to the propane ports on our CIs. There were a few things to figure out… the mysterious one was that to connect to the cylinder port on the heater the hose fitting must have a schrader valve core screwed in it. Which was new info, because stoves and grills would *not* work if the valve was installed.

Lots more details in the thread…

Edit:
And here was Cary’s explanation of the challenges of schrader valves anmovignd various gas appliances. Och.

You can, and I do -- BUT there is a minor gotcha. You need to use a filter on the heater if you do this.

The reason is, the propane can deteriorate the hoses, which will put 'ick' in the pilot light area of the heater. This 'ick' will cause the heater to fail. The genuine buddy heaters hoses, I was told, use a formulation that this doesn't happen. Dunno -- filter seems cheap insurance regardless

If you are using 1lb cylinders, this rubber deterioration obviously doesn't happen and you'll be fine.

I use one of these hose/filter setups when I'm going to be stationary for a while --- these tank solutions fit in where it is going to be moving around, or you're farther away from your camper than hoses will allow.

Good observation on the overfilling -- the tanks are really heavy, I'm giving faith in the company's engineers.
 
No not really. Maybe if he filled it in the Artic and then took it to Death Valley.

I’m just repeating some properties of propane that I read. I really don’t have much experience with expansion other than if I fill a home tank in cold weather it never reads 80% when cold. I have three 1,000 gallons tanks, two 500 gallon, one 250 gallon and one 420 pound tank plus a dozen or so 20-100 pounders. Plus of course two little CI tanks.
Thanks! I'm dropping a pin in the map for Tours Propane if the Snowcapalypse hits while I'm passing thru...
 
Thanks! I'm dropping a pin in the map for Tours Propane if the Snowcapalypse hits while I'm passing thru...
Who are you kidding? You seriously think you'd leave sunny Kali?

Gone through 2 1lb tanks and refilled them already -- money well spent! The refill kit has aleady paid for itself, now I'm onto paying for the kegs themselves!
 
No not really. Maybe if he filled it in the Artic and then took it to Death Valley.

I’m just repeating some properties of propane that I read. I really don’t have much experience with expansion other than if I fill a home tank in cold weather it never reads 80% when cold. I have three 1,000 gallons tanks, two 500 gallon, one 250 gallon and one 420 pound tank plus a dozen or so 20-100 pounders. Plus of course two little CI tanks.
@Tour 931 how much propane do you go through? Is it heating, hot water, cooking? Refrigeration? Backup or primary generator? Lighting? That seems like a lot of propane!

When I was a child there was this one pizza parlor that ran a delivery fleet of propane converted small pickup trucks. Each had maybe a 120 gallon tank right behind the cab. And every driver always had the pedal to the floor. They sounded like small jets…

But they also had propane warming ovens in the bed… somebody had some bright ideas!
 
I have 2 1000 gal propane tanks for the house. I use approximately 1100 - 1300 gallons a year heat and water only. Refilling is 800 gallons each… new delivery driver filled them exactly at 80 %. Previous years with the same driver he filled them to 85 knowing going into winter would be less.

Buying in late August is usually at the bottom price per gallon for propane Volume buying also reduces the cost.
 
@Tour 931 how much propane do you go through? Is it heating, hot water, cooking? Refrigeration? Backup or primary generator? Lighting? That seems like a lot of propane!

When I was a child there was this one pizza parlor that ran a delivery fleet of propane converted small pickup trucks. Each had maybe a 120 gallon tank right behind the cab. And every driver always had the pedal to the floor. They sounded like small jets…

But they also had propane warming ovens in the bed… somebody had some bright ideas!
Just heating and hot water and I use about 600 gallons a year which is about the useable amount a 1,000 gallon tank can hold. So I could go three years.
@Tour 931 how much propane do you go through? Is it heating, hot water, cooking? Refrigeration? Backup or primary generator? Lighting? That seems like a lot of propane!

When I was a child there was this one pizza parlor that ran a delivery fleet of propane converted small pickup trucks. Each had maybe a 120 gallon tank right behind the cab. And every driver always had the pedal to the floor. They sounded like small jets…

But they also had propane warming ovens in the bed… somebody had some bright ideas!
i use 600 gallons a year which is the useable capacity of a 1,000 gallon tank. It’s just for heat and hot water. Propane went from $0.99 to about $4.00 during COVID. Now it’s around $1.13. I have the capacity to only buy when it’s priced right.
 
Just heating and hot water and I use about 600 gallons a year which is about the useable amount a 1,000 gallon tank can hold. So I could go three years.

i use 600 gallons a year which is the useable capacity of a 1,000 gallon tank. It’s just for heat and hot water. Propane went from $0.99 to about $4.00 during COVID. Now it’s around $1.13. I have the capacity to only buy when it’s priced right.

That is a great strategy --- that you can't do with natural gas --- you are stuck paying whatever they decide to sell it to you at, same for our coop which is a machine at over charging.

I don't want to see this months useage!!!!

Though we did find out we've been wasting a lot of gas! The former furnce guy told us to use a 'good filter' and he recommended a brand for us. That furnace died finally, and we had the winner of the bid tell us that that filter was a waste of money. While it filtered everything out, it made the furnace suck through a straw, suggesting a much cheaper filter and one that was slightly more 'open'.

Our furnace only ran 5 hours yesterday, keeping the house at 64 at night, 70 during the day. I wish my history on my t-stat when further back than a month! I'd love to know what last year in February looked like when we had one of these 'unseasonably cold' annual events.
 
That is a great strategy --- that you can't do with natural gas --- you are stuck paying whatever they decide to sell it to you at, same for our coop which is a machine at over charging.

I don't want to see this months useage!!!!

Though we did find out we've been wasting a lot of gas! The former furnce guy told us to use a 'good filter' and he recommended a brand for us. That furnace died finally, and we had the winner of the bid tell us that that filter was a waste of money. While it filtered everything out, it made the furnace suck through a straw, suggesting a much cheaper filter and one that was slightly more 'open'.

Our furnace only ran 5 hours yesterday, keeping the house at 64 at night, 70 during the day. I wish my history on my t-stat when further back than a month! I'd love to know what last year in February looked like when we had one of these 'unseasonably cold' annual events.
Furnaces are just like internal combustion engines. You have to let them breathe. I had a HEPA filter on my furnace in Washington and changed it one a month in the heating season. Here in Wisconsin I have radiant floor heat which doesn’t filter the air. I can really notice the house gets dusty fast. I have a house cleaner come in for three hours every other week so my house stays clean.
 
Furnaces are just like internal combustion engines. You have to let them breathe. I had a HEPA filter on my furnace in Washington and changed it one a month in the heating season. Here in Wisconsin I have radiant floor heat which doesn’t filter the air. I can really notice the house gets dusty fast. I have a house cleaner come in for three hours every other week so my house stays clean.

Its one of those things, I knew -- but because it was a furnace I just took the 'furnace guy' expert advice.

I hate to say it, and I don't want to start a flame war here, but in the past few years I have quite literally given up on experts except me. Not that I am one on everything, but when there is a decision to make about anythying -- products to use, or services to purchase...it is incumbent on ME to understand, as best as I can, what I am doing, being asked to do, and determine my own risk tolerance.

This is obvious -- but it was just a very insightful lesson here. Radiant heat is one of those things I want :)
 
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