Dead Batteries Aren't Much Fun

[dustinp]

Started this when I was 47. Now I'm 72 and still fly nearly every week, usually racing around the mountains with friends but sometimes flying cross-country. Longest was 103 miles in UT.

Wow, 103 miles of continuous non-powered flight is quite an accomplishment! ....and thought I was doing good to get my GlaStar's fuel burn down below 6 gal an hour on an IO360 and still be doing 130+mph.
In the attached photo I had a bit of a tail wind, so while the airspeed reads 127, you can see in the upper left corner of the left screen, that the ground speed (GS) is 159. The right screen has the engine monitoring, and shows the current fuel flow at that point was 5.6 GPH running between 56 and 77 degrees lean of peak @ 66% power.
View attachment upload_2022-9-7_20-3-49.png

 

[Henry]

Came across this today in a Costco email. LiFePO4 batteries on sale(?). 105Ah for $700 doesn't seem particularly cheap, but the thing that caught my eye is that it is a group 24 battery. I don't think I have seen a group 24 at 100Ah before. Don't know anything about Lion Energy, but Costco usually doesn't sell complete junk.
View attachment upload_2022-9-7_20-20-22.png

 

[dustinp]

Came across this today in a Costco email. LiFePO4 batteries on sale(?). 105Ah for $700 doesn't seem particularly cheap, but the thing that caught my eye is that it is a group 24 battery. I don't think I have seen a group 24 at 100Ah before. Don't know anything about Lion Energy, but Costco usually doesn't sell complete junk.
View attachment 8606

It sounds like it would fit, and if all that was needed was the battery, while expensive, it might be worth considering, but the LiFePO4 batteries require a different charger as well, and don't particularly like cold storage or for sure cold charging. So, while I was interested in the LiFePo4 batteries at first glance, after doing some deeper research, I decided that for our type of use anyway, at this point, they were maybe more trouble than they are worth, in a cold climate anyway. Things are always changing though, and this will probably be something that does too.

 

[JohnC]

Well, if $700 doesn't sound cheap, don't forget it's Costco. You have to buy a 2 pack for $1400. Yeah, no thanks.

 

[Sweeney]

Yup. Damaging them charging below zero on a nippy morning, or worse...a lithium battery fire at my feet...nope.
The AGM is just fine.
Waiting on the self heating Lion batteries to go thru consumer beta.
CTEK can manage them, I understand, when time comes.

Relion has the heated tech in their Insight line but not in our size yet.
I'm following Cary and Craig's lead.
When they install in new CI's, and offer warranty, I'm in for a refurb trip.

I wonder if the 2 pack of batteries is required for 100ah. Are you getting 200ah or 50Ah x 2 --- battle born, the leader in this space, only offers 50 ah...

As for the batteries themselves, there is probably some use for them, but I don't see how they benefit a weekend warrior. Maybe my perspective is off because I simply do not have dispersed camping available to me. Not to mention I live in a place where air conditioning is a necessity. Humidity and heat in the midwest would make any kind of camping a miserable experience. I know, I've done it. In a teardrop you can't stack enough batteries together to run big appliances like ACs where as on a big rig you can.

Then there's the cost difference...35h to 50ah for about $500 difference in price. Even if the LIFEPO4 lasts for 7 years...my lead acid lasts 2 or 3 --- it is a break even dollar amount.

Then you factor in the fiddly nature of these advanced batteries is my objection, then there's price. Fiddly because you can't charge below freezing (I know self heating is coming technology), they don't like to be left floating at 100%, so storing your camper you can't just plug it in and forget it.

Lastly there is the angry pixies issue...I've seen a battery like this go nuclear before. I want to be FAR away when that happens.

I'm not sure what I am missing here --- seems to be a lot of excitement over not a lot of benefit, at least at the teardrop level. In my house, I'd love to get a bank of 500ah 48 volt batteries that will be charged and discharged (partially) daily...this makes far more sense to me.

I dunno --- maybe I'm missing something here.

 

[dustinp]

.........I'm not sure what I am missing here --- seems to be a lot of excitement over not a lot of benefit, at least at the teardrop level. In my house, I'd love to get a bank of 500ah 48 volt batteries that will be charged and discharged (partially) daily...this makes far more sense to me.

I dunno --- maybe I'm missing something here.

at this point anyway, I agree, and instead, I spent a day modifying my battery compartment to be able to handle a larger 100ah Victron battery. Here are a couple before and after pics. of going from 33ah to 100ah. In the lower left corner you kind of see the battery cut off switch, and the low voltage auto disconnect zip tied to the back of the compartment cover so that they are in the space above the battery when closed.
View attachment upload_2022-9-9_10-12-31.png

View attachment upload_2022-9-9_10-13-37.png

 

[JohnC]

I wonder if the 2 pack of batteries is required for 100ah. Are you getting 200ah or 50Ah x 2 --- battle born, the leader in this space, only offers 50 ah...


I'm not sure what I am missing here --- seems to be a lot of excitement over not a lot of benefit, at least at the teardrop level.

Each battery is 100Ah.

I tend to agree with you on the second point. While I really wish the battery capacity were larger, the current available options just don't seem very cost/labor justified for the gain in capacity. Given the cost of the AGM batteries and their lifespan I really wouldn't get too worried about having it drop below 50% now and then. It doesn't destroy the battery, it only shortens it's life. If a $200 battery was going to last you 6 years and now only lasts you 3 years you're paying $33 for the privilege/convenience of extending the usable capacity of your battery. $33 won't fill your gas tank.

 

[SethB]

at this point anyway, I agree, and instead, I spent a day modifying my battery compartment to be able to handle a larger 100ah Victron battery. Here are a couple before and after pics. of going from 33ah to 100ah. In the lower left corner you kind of see the battery cut off switch, and the low voltage auto disconnect zip tied to the back of the compartment cover so that they are in the space above the battery when closed.
View attachment 8608

Our battery compartment looks much like your second picture. Love the 100ah Victron AGM!
It looks like you have a CTEK AC110v/DC charger above it?

CI users have gotten used to the term “the CTEK” to refer to their excellent 12v/12v alternator/solar charger, but CTEK also makes an excellent line of conventional chargers.

I’ve installed a Victron AC/DC charger in the bin area, I think it’s 17a, and a “the CTEK” 12v/12v DC charger in the battery compartment. Pretty full in there with 100ah batt.

Each battery is 100Ah.

I tend to agree with you on the second point. While I really wish the battery capacity were larger, the current available options just don't seem very cost/labor justified for the gain in capacity. Given the cost of the AGM batteries and their lifespan I really wouldn't get too worried about having it drop below 50% now and then. It doesn't destroy the battery, it only shortens it's life. If a $200 battery was going to last you 6 years and now only lasts you 3 years you're paying $33 for the privilege/convenience of extending the usable capacity of your battery. $33 won't fill your gas tank.

This really takes a sharp pencil to figure, and people will make different decisions.

Cold weather issues are big when considering lithium.
Also, super lightweight.
About a 55 or 60ah lithium for equivalence with 100ah AGM?
Maybe a new AC/DC charger. And maybe a new DC/DC charger or solar controller too.

The last time I sharpened my pencil lithium was about a 5x cost premium over AGM, and cold weather issues weren’t well known. We’ve seen continuing improvements on both!

 

[JohnC]

This really takes a sharp pencil to figure, and people will make different decisions.

Cold weather issues are big when considering lithium.
Also, super lightweight.
About a 55 or 60ah lithium for equivalence with 100ah AGM?
Maybe a new AC/DC charger. And maybe a new DC/DC charger or solar controller too.

The last time I sharpened my pencil lithium was about a 5x cost premium over AGM, and cold weather issues weren’t well known. We’ve seen continuing improvements on both!

True. I didn't mean to try and talk anybody into anything, just pointing out the minimal cost of squeezing out more capacity from an AGM. ;-) The lithium batteries are coming down in price but many of the cheapest are from companies with no track record of quality or customer service behind them. The few name brands out there are still pretty pricey last I looked.

You make a good point that a smaller lithium battery can produce a similar usable output as the AGM, but I find it still an underwhelming amount of capacity. But I absolutely respect everybody's choice to do what works best for them.

 

[dustinp]

Our battery compartment looks much like your second picture. Love the 100ah Victron AGM!
It looks like you have a CTEK AC110v/DC charger above it?

CI users have gotten used to the term “the CTEK” to refer to their excellent 12v/12v alternator/solar charger, but CTEK also makes an excellent line of conventional chargers.

I’ve installed a Victron AC/DC charger in the bin area, I think it’s 17a, and a “the CTEK” 12v/12v DC charger in the battery compartment. Pretty full in there with 100ah batt.

Yes, I've had a couple of the CTEK chargers for other vehicles, so installed the CTEK 110/12 V AC charger when my OEM 110/12 V AC Battery Tender charger bit the dust after about 12 years of use. Before it died, the Battery Tender had served us well, so we'll try the CTEK 110/12V for now, and see if we find whether adding a 12/12V DC charger would be something worth the additional expense for our use.

 

[Sweeney]

I if it makes sense, it makes sense. Personal choice and all.

I just don’t see how, at the economy of scale we are talking in a CI….it makes no sense to me. Now. If you plan on solar and 3 days of ick….maybe it does. I just don’t want to allow myself to get swept up with the enthusiasm…

I don’t understand it…trying to understand.

 

[dustinp]

Got to try out the new Victron 100ah battery earlier this week at the Army Corp. of Engineers Crosslake Campground, which is one of our favorites. Cross Lake Recreation Area, Mississippi River Headwaters - Cross Lake - Recreation.gov. We were in site 25 which has a combination of sun & shade, which does end up having you chasing the sun with 100W solar collector. But doing that in this non-electric lakeside site saw our battery drop from 13.6 V on arrival, to a low of 12.7 during the two sunny days we were there, with the Dometic 35 connected continuously, and set at 37 degrees, while sitting on the side table inside the Clam Pavillion set over our galley area. The fantastic fan was on the thermostat, but did not run very much, since outside temps during the day were low-mid 70's for highs, and night time lows were in the mid 40's. We did watch TV for about an hour each night before going to sleep, so it and the interior lights and sound system amplifier were all running each evening along with the Dometic. So, while it was a short test, in fairly ideal conditions, so far, so good at this point.

 

[gregangsten]

Back on topic a little more...
I think I have finally (knock on wood) solved my battery woes. Since I have a fridge and rarely use plug-in campsites, I've gone through a few batteries. I added a Ctek but would still tend to wear out batteries too fast.

Here is the way I do it now. I purchased the Renogy smart Li battery (when on sale, yeah!) and their 40 A DC-DC charger which I mounted in the back compartment of my older Honda Pilot. After replacing my umpteenth AGM battery in the trailer with another, I now use the fridge exclusively with the LiPo battery which I love. I have it in a portable battery case and it's so light that it is no problem to bring it along also in the vehicle. If not staying for an extended time in one place, I leave the battery and fridge in the back of the Pilot and leave it hooked up to the charger as well so that it is restored if I go anywhere with or without the trailer. No more fridge shutoff from low voltage when the compressor kicks in and rapid recharging when necessary along with a longer work life between charges. My new trailer battery never came anywhere near running down on a week long trip I just took. I should add that I am also using solar when parked for more than one night.

 

[TheSongDogHouse]

Back on topic a little more...
I think I have finally (knock on wood) solved my battery woes. Since I have a fridge and rarely use plug-in campsites, I've gone through a few batteries. I added a Ctek but would still tend to wear out batteries too fast.

Here is the way I do it now. I purchased the Renogy smart Li battery (when on sale, yeah!) and their 40 A DC-DC charger which I mounted in the back compartment of my older Honda Pilot. After replacing my umpteenth AGM battery in the trailer with another, I now use the fridge exclusively with the LiPo battery which I love. I have it in a portable battery case and it's so light that it is no problem to bring it along also in the vehicle. If not staying for an extended time in one place, I leave the battery and fridge in the back of the Pilot and leave it hooked up to the charger as well so that it is restored if I go anywhere with or without the trailer. No more fridge shutoff from low voltage when the compressor kicks in and rapid recharging when necessary along with a longer work life between charges. My new trailer battery never came anywhere near running down on a week long trip I just took. I should add that I am also using solar when parked for more than one night.

Thanks Greg, highly useful.
Questions:
Is your Renogy DC to DC charger serving as an isolator from Honda starter battery when ignition is off?
Does your trailer battery also charge by alternator when hooked up to your Honda?

 

[gregangsten]

Thanks Greg, highly useful.
Questions:
Is your Renogy DC to DC charger serving as an isolator from Honda starter battery when ignition is off?
Does your trailer battery also charge by alternator when hooked up to your Honda?

Yes, the charger input and output are isolated so there is no effect from the starter battery. I think I attached a D+ wire on the charger to the 12 V socket in the rear of the car so that it is only activated when the ignition is on. The trailer battery is charged normally from the car alternator also when towing.

The 2 switches shown in a photo mounted in the car are for power to the charger and a charge limiter that keeps the charger output amperage below 20. I guess this is to avoid overloading the alternator? I've been generally leaving it on since it still charges up pretty quickly with the limiter functioning.

 

[Sweeney]

AAAH!!! DRAT!!!!! <CENSORED>!!!!

Is it 3 or 4 times I've now flatlined the battery!!!

OK -- I charged it, and pulled off the sufrance charge by running a light and the fan for about 20 minutes. It still has 12.9 volts and a 100% SOH from the battery load tester. I'm almost unsure how that is possible on a 2-year-old battery. I'm letting the fan, light, and fridge run for a couple of hours -- see what it looks like then, after it is partially depleted.

That is more than I usually pull, I don't normally run lights that long. But I'm starting to think about the LIFEPO4 retrofit...

At least the BMS will shut down before the battery damages itself.

So...planning ahead here's my questions:

1. Bigger battery charger to facilitate faster charging. Is anyone charging with the 6 amp? I know you'll get a faster charge with the 10 amp, but the 10 amp charger is larger, and with the autowbrake controller my storage bay is pretty full and I don't want to give up more space. The 6 amp charger should charge tha battery in 8-10 hours, so I can live with that.
   
   
2. I did not order the trimeric. So I need a monitor. Any retrofit experiences? I want a display, not requiring a smart phone. My next phone will be a dumb flip-phone.
   
   I like the Victron BMV-710 or 712, with a hole size of 2 inches, and a 1-inch depth --- it looks possible. Perhaps resize the current volt meter hole, next to the power disconnect. I'm not sure whats behind that panel, I will pull it off when I reinstall the battery cover this afternoon
   
   This next idea solves my objection about the continual charging of batteries killing them. While in long-term storage I would still want to simply disconnect the power, but for the time between camping trips, it could be left plugged in, the parasitic draw is low enough it would likely only need to charge the battery every couple of weeks...I've never tested this.
   
   I could use the "generator start" feature of the 700/712, using a solid state relay to turn on/off the power from the charger to the battery. This would allow the battery to recharge, then discharge, then automatically recharge the battery as if the power was coming from a generator. The 'risk' is to the charger itself, how does it like being disconnected from the battery rather than being unplugged at the AC port, or does it even care. I would not want to trust a solid-state relay on a 110 volt line. That seems more dangerous to me.
   
   
3. Then the battery itself. I'm unsure who CI is using, but I see a few heated LIFEPO4 batteries that are group24 and that are heated. As long as it fits, is from a reputable company, heated, and lifepo4 it should be OK --- these are from my understanding a much safer option than Lithium Ion. I am "feint of heart" and want to keep as much of this 'factory' as possible. Retrofitting has never been my strong point.

Thoughts and suggestions?

 

[SethB]

My understanding is that not all group 24 batteries will fit - it’s important to measure your current battery, the tray it sits on, and the play in height you might get by adjusting the cleat that holds down the battery.

Also bearing in mind that some of the “empty” space above the battery is actually taken up by the back of the disconnect switch when the cover goes back on the battery/elec compartment.

 

[Henry]

I believe I saw somewhere (maybe Facebook) that CI is using the Precision batteries PR110-DC+HT. Looks like they are carried by Continental Battery Systems.

 

[Sweeney]

I believe I saw somewhere (maybe Facebook) that CI is using the Precision batteries PR110-DC+HT. Looks like they are carried by Continental Battery Systems.

Hi Henry --- thank you, this is what I thought as well but couldn't remember (or find) but it looks familiar.

My legacy battery seems to have survived yet another beating....

After 6 hours under load, its still showing 90% (fan, fridge, light, and 'computer') --- so this year it may remain academic.

I just don't want to have battery problems this year --- I'm planning on replacing it next year, either lifepo4 or lead acid -- 90% of my use is with power...but I don't want to be dead in the water for the last 4 weeks of this season...

I just realized which camper you own Lucky you!!!!

 

[TheSongDogHouse]

AAAH!!! DRAT!!!!! <CENSORED>!!!!

Is it 3 or 4 times I've now flatlined the battery!!!

OK -- I charged it, and pulled off the sufrance charge by running a light and the fan for about 20 minutes. It still has 12.9 volts and a 100% SOH from the battery load tester. I'm almost unsure how that is possible on a 2-year-old battery. I'm letting the fan, light, and fridge run for a couple of hours -- see what it looks like then, after it is partially depleted.

That is more than I usually pull, I don't normally run lights that long. But I'm starting to think about the LIFEPO4 retrofit...

At least the BMS will shut down before the battery damages itself.

So...planning ahead here's my questions:

1. Bigger battery charger to facilitate faster charging. Is anyone charging with the 6 amp? I know you'll get a faster charge with the 10 amp, but the 10 amp charger is larger, and with the autowbrake controller my storage bay is pretty full and I don't want to give up more space. The 6 amp charger should charge tha battery in 8-10 hours, so I can live with that.
   
   
2. I did not order the trimeric. So I need a monitor. Any retrofit experiences? I want a display, not requiring a smart phone. My next phone will be a dumb flip-phone.
   
   I like the Victron BMV-710 or 712, with a hole size of 2 inches, and a 1-inch depth --- it looks possible. Perhaps resize the current volt meter hole, next to the power disconnect. I'm not sure whats behind that panel, I will pull it off when I reinstall the battery cover this afternoon
   
   This next idea solves my objection about the continual charging of batteries killing them. While in long-term storage I would still want to simply disconnect the power, but for the time between camping trips, it could be left plugged in, the parasitic draw is low enough it would likely only need to charge the battery every couple of weeks...I've never tested this.
   
   I could use the "generator start" feature of the 700/712, using a solid state relay to turn on/off the power from the charger to the battery. This would allow the battery to recharge, then discharge, then automatically recharge the battery as if the power was coming from a generator. The 'risk' is to the charger itself, how does it like being disconnected from the battery rather than being unplugged at the AC port, or does it even care. I would not want to trust a solid-state relay on a 110 volt line. That seems more dangerous to me.
   
   
3. Then the battery itself. I'm unsure who CI is using, but I see a few heated LIFEPO4 batteries that are group24 and that are heated. As long as it fits, is from a reputable company, heated, and lifepo4 it should be OK --- these are from my understanding a much safer option than Lithium Ion. I am "feint of heart" and want to keep as much of this 'factory' as possible. Retrofitting has never been my strong point.

Thoughts and suggestions?

Sweeney, re: buying and installing your own battery- its not that hard if its same size as original.

Call Cary.
Battery upgrade-My understanding is you can get the exact same heated Lithium battery they get wholesale sourced via retail channel. (Edit- already covered above)

Charger upgrade- I'd use the Noco10 - its small enough and easily squeezed in someplace in your galley bay.

Here's a pic of my NOCO5, also good for Lithium which I installed as replacement for failed shore battery charger originally located underneath between water tanks.

Fyi: I bot my 2010 560 used and had solar panel and Ctek and AutoW brake controller retrofitted at factory.

So the wires bundle in battery compartment was changed a bit and there wasnt any room above battery to secure the Noco.

And I wanted to see state of charging lights easier than the original; "sliding under trailer"
Or
Having to "unscrew to take battery compartment panel off",

So now its just a lift of galley compartment lid to check...
And imho
Worth it to give up that little bit of space.

I'm following yours and others option/lesson learned on where to upgrade to a Trimeric or a Victron or the equivalent to monitor state of charge on a lion battery, if one were to retrofit on one's own.

I like the idea of easy access to data on a smartphone app but insist on hard wired option as a backup/primary. So when you figure it out, let us know.

I def dont feel comfortable cutting into the cabinetry myself but perhaps mounted in galley compartment or the right side storage it would be possible to run wires.

Craig and Cary patiently coached me on which wires to splice into to bypass the old shore charger, from inside battery compartment, step by step...by email and phone.

I am FAR behind you on the electrical and IT tech skilz...pretty much noob level hands on.

When my current replacement AGM sealed lead acid goes bad, I'll probably upgrade to lion in the CI then. For now I like sealed AGM as a step up from flooded cell as I do like to drive down bumpy USFS roads and rather not fracture a UPS style flooded cell lead acid or loosen a cap and dry it out- most likely why my last one fried- or in combo with the old gen1 shore battery that typically fails by over voltage...cooks the battery. (They dont use that model anymore btw...ask Cary what model year if concerned).

I do have backup 72ah lion battery in sogen in tow vehicle to run toys there, inc Dometic in freezer mode. I have an old 40ah sogen that rides in forward compartment with cpap, that charges from dc off the CI batt and solar just fine, with good sun. And a second cpap that runs off dc, more efficiently than AC.

Now I am thinking about how to get MOAR powah from solar on the TV...to charge the larger sogen...in the TV...or something more permanent- more batteries mounted in a rear seat delete like Scotts StealthGTI...

but thats a different project, noodling on...on hold now in favor of family commitments and real estate relocation that sadly keeps me landlocked here a bit longer vs land yachting to CICO this year...

But soon back at it!
Glamp On!
Post pics y'all!