Good Discussion Of Lithium Batteries

I gave some real careful consideration to lithium as an auxiliary power source for CPAP. The details had to do with cost/amp-hour and allowable percent of draw-down without damage. Weight/amp-hour was a secondary consideration. My target was 3 nights (typical) and 5 nights (occasional) without recharging, as an aux or "pony" batt dedicated to CPAP. This allowed me to consider the house battery as a backup power source, also important!

Ultimately, I special-ordered and had to wait 6 or 8 weeks for a slightly custom lead-acid AGM, and kept my original AGM in the camper for lights, fan, furnace, etc.

Details in this lengthy thread:
Cpap Power For Boondocking

Everybody's use is going to be a little different. People's tolerance for the premium price large Lithium batts bring is going to be different too. I'm a bit on the cheap side, but want performance too. For my style and power needs a late-generation AGM was the ticket.
 
SethB said:
I gave some real careful consideration to lithium as an auxiliary power source for CPAP. The details had to do with cost/amp-hour and allowable percent of draw-down without damage. Weight/amp-hour was a secondary consideration. My target was 3 nights (typical) and 5 nights (occasional) without recharging, as an aux or "pony" batt dedicated to CPAP. This allowed me to consider the house battery as a backup power source, also important!

Ultimately, I special-ordered and had to wait 6 or 8 weeks for a slightly custom lead-acid AGM, and kept my original AGM in the camper for lights, fan, furnace, etc.

Details in this lengthy thread:
Cpap Power For Boondocking

Everybody's use is going to be a little different. People's tolerance for the premium price large Lithium batts bring is going to be different too. I'm a bit on the cheap side, but want performance too. For my style and power needs a late-generation AGM was the ticket.
Click to expand...


Did you ever consider something like Goal Zero Yeti 400 lithium?
 
I did. Though I think I was looking at the Goal Zero Yeti 1000 at the time.

A) The GZ batts seemed to be a marketing premium on top of a premium lithium price.
B) The integrated solutions for solar charging they offer make for a nice package, but, I was specifically looking for a non-solar solution, as our primary camping is in the NW. We’re almost always camping in the trees, or, cloud cover.
C) There is a more affordable alternative to GZ, but, the cost/amp-hour figures were still really high compared to lead-acid sealed AGM.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Lithium+generator&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
 
I went with this... RIVER412 Black.

For the same Amp Hours as a GoalZero its about 1/3 smaller and lighter, and about the size of a toaster, it sits on the back top shelf in the galley, where it is easily accessible. GZ turned me off because of the limited charging options i.e. you couldn't charge via the TV's 12 V outlet, which for a 'travel/portable battery' seemed ludicrous. Its considerable output capacity is sufficient to run the fan, Dometic, water pump and lights, all at the same time. Overall, it will extend our dry-camping time by about a day and half, with no charging. Charging from zero to 100% with a 100W panel will take the better part of a day; much less on A/C. It comes with all the accessory charge cords, including a variety of different sized coax plugs... something that GZ turns into a consumer headache, post-purchase, when you realize that you don't have everything you need to operate it. This start-up company's history is worth a read, and though made in China, has a U.S. tech pedigree. Lots of power ins and outs, and very easy to read and understand what it is doing.

I am just about to post the conclusion to my flexible solar panel mount project (theft-proof mounting to the roof of the 560, with an adjustable and removable home-made frame for optimal panel placement in the sun) very soon. Combined with a full trailer battery, and occasional solar charging, this small lithium battery is a key part of a tidy unobtrusive system that will easily allow us to dry-camp for a least a week.

I know that a lithium is not in everyone's price-point ballpark. I was able to justify an additional part of the expense as it also functions as an emergency home battery for powering electronics (internet router) during an outage. The other small part, that I couldn't rationalize on any practical level, I just suck up as a 'cool toy'.
 
I should add, in the spirit of the initial post inquiry, that I have never considered replacing the trailer battery with a lithium and will probably stay Lead or AGM when the time comes. My one experience with a lithium automotive battery was in my motorcycle, several years ago, and it was a failure. Double the price, half the weight, and half the life expectancy. Granted, its use involved cranking, which the TD battery won't have to do, but I think that a lithium is best utilized in a smaller portable auxiliary capacity.
 
That’s a real interesting user report on the River lithium package. On the math side, it seems to be a GZ-like package without the inflated cost and marketing.

Am I doing the math right? About 34Ah at 12v = the listed 412Wh?

I too am partially rationalizing the aux battery approach in that I’ll have nights of CPAP use during local power outages. It has been a few years though since we’ve had a big one at night - the climate has gotten warmer (fewer ice storms), and the local power co. has trimmed a lot of trees away from power lines in troublesome areas.

But, still, that I can drag the aux batt to the warm house rather than moving out to the cold camper in the middle of the night will someday be a welcome change!
 
Seth: Math is right. And at 11 pounds (and compared to the 17 pound GZ 400) its size and weight are very "teardropper-like". Its about half the capacity of the OEM, which when combined would give the average user about 4 days of moderate trailer/accessory use, without recharging. The River's 12V outlet plugs into any of the 560's 12V plugs (using a doubled-ended cigarette plug/cord) and powers all of the 12V trailer system. Just have to disconnect the trailer battery from the system. The LED read-out lets you know the amperage draw, the current battery capacity as a percentage, as well as the number of hours remaining at that particular current draw. Very helpful.

I charged the River from 60% capacity to 100% in two hours, in Canadian April sun, in under two hours with a 110W panel, optimized for angle. So I can't complain about that. Keeping both it and the trailer battery topped up will be a breeze.

Ecoflow has grown as a company since I bought in the fall and they now offer this and a slightly smaller version, though there is nothing to compete with GZ's larger units. Yet. And though this is not a cheapie itself, you're right that GZ does seem to inflate its prices for what you get, and with an apparent lack of recent innovation. Ecoflow doesn't have the track record of a GZ having been in "business" for only 3 or so years. But they seem to be doing all the right things. And they are a far cry from the all the cheap re-branded 100% Chinese units that have flooded Amazon.
 
Trout: I stand corrected. The GZ Lithium is now chargeable via 12V, whereas it wasn't 6 months ago...

The Goal Zero Yeti 400 Lithium can be charged in 4 - 7 hours by plugging into your vehicle's 12V outlet using the Goal Zero Yeti Lithium 12V Car Charging Cable. NOTE: Do not attempt to charge your Yeti Lithium from a 12V source using any other cable. Doing so may cause damage to the unit.

However, if past performance is any indicator then it will be expensive and difficult to obtain. Just checked: The link from their site above doesn't work; when I found it elsewhere on their site it was $40 and currently out of stock. No surprise there. Their lead acid version was chargeable via 12V and customers were constantly upset that they couldn't get the cord.

The River, on the other hand makes no such stipulations and can use a wide range of third party accessories. Just make sure that the rated amperage limits on the cords and coax connectors are respected as these can vary widely. If you stay at or above a 5.0A rating then all should be good; a 100W panel won't generate any more than 5A, and none of the trailer appliances draw more than that (water pump is about 2.5A, Dometic is 1.5A and the fan can vary from 1.5A to about 3.0A, as a reference). The 12V double-ended cigarette plug that I use to power the trailer with the River is a 10A fused cord.
 
SethB said:
I gave some real careful consideration to lithium as an auxiliary power source for CPAP. The details had to do with cost/amp-hour and allowable percent of draw-down without damage. Weight/amp-hour was a secondary consideration. My target was 3 nights (typical) and 5 nights (occasional) without recharging, as an aux or "pony" batt dedicated to CPAP. This allowed me to consider the house battery as a backup power source, also important!

Ultimately, I special-ordered and had to wait 6 or 8 weeks for a slightly custom lead-acid AGM, and kept my original AGM in the camper for lights, fan, furnace, etc.

Details in this lengthy thread:
Cpap Power For Boondocking

Everybody's use is going to be a little different. People's tolerance for the premium price large Lithium batts bring is going to be different too. I'm a bit on the cheap side, but want performance too. For my style and power needs a late-generation AGM was the ticket.
Click to expand...
Great info Seth!
 
Steve and Karen said:
Seth: Math is right. And at 11 pounds (and compared to the 17 pound GZ 400) its size and weight are very "teardropper-like". Its about half the capacity of the OEM, which when combined would give the average user about 4 days of moderate trailer/accessory use, without recharging. The River's 12V outlet plugs into any of the 560's 12V plugs (using a doubled-ended cigarette plug/cord) and powers all of the 12V trailer system. Just have to disconnect the trailer battery from the system. The LED read-out lets you know the amperage draw, the current battery capacity as a percentage, as well as the number of hours remaining at that particular current draw. Very helpful.

I charged the River from 60% capacity to 100% in two hours, in Canadian April sun, in under two hours with a 110W panel, optimized for angle. So I can't complain about that. Keeping both it and the trailer battery topped up will be a breeze.

Ecoflow has grown as a company since I bought in the fall and they now offer this and a slightly smaller version, though there is nothing to compete with GZ's larger units. Yet. And though this is not a cheapie itself, you're right that GZ does seem to inflate its prices for what you get, and with an apparent lack of recent innovation. Ecoflow doesn't have the track record of a GZ having been in "business" for only 3 or so years. But they seem to be doing all the right things. And they are a far cry from the all the cheap re-branded 100% Chinese units that have flooded Amazon.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the great feedback, very informative!
 
As a follow-up to the Ecoflow River Lithium info I provided above, earlier this year, Eco flow is currently in the midst of a Kickstarter/crowdfunding campaign with their Delta 1000 (Wh) and Delta 1300 (Wh) units becoming available shortly in December, but available for pre-order now at a significant discount. Their previous success with their crowdfunding effort to develop the 412 Wh unit (that I have) means that their business model, tech, and R&D is sound, and that there would appear to be little financial risk to jumping into the pool at this point. Unlike some other crowdfunding e-ventures. If you want to save a few bucks. And need a unit of this larger size.

DELTA - The New Standard Of Battery-Powered Generator

I have been very happy with my smaller 11 pound toaster-size. However, these new models are in the neighbourhood of 3 X the capacity of mine, and can actually run some AC appliances and tools for a significant time. They are nowhere the size and weight of a Goal Zero of comparable Wh capacity. Again, they appear to be leaving Goal Zero in the dust and building on their recent success.

Steve
 
I don't have a TV or any significant draw on a battery other than the fridge and my CPAP mahcine. (and recharging phones and other small batteries, I guess, though I try to charge those while we drive).

I bought a Goal Zero Yeti 1400 for camping, but also to have a backup power source at home. We use the GZYeti to power the fridge when we are driving, but parked, and the fridge is in the TV not at the campsite (plugged in to the TD battery). If the TV ignition is OFF and the fridge is in the TV, we unplug the fridge from the TV and plug it in to the GZYeti. For example, if we take a hike, or make a supermarket stop or a restaurant or visitor center, we unplug the fridge from the TV and plug it into the GZYeti. If I avoid killing the TV battery even ONCE, the GZYeti is worth the price. Plus it's backup for my CPAP when my two small (one night) batteries are dead.

Also, the advantage of a portable battery like a GZYeti is that you can move it along with your solar panels to grab the elusive sun when camping in trees, which is 90% of the camping we do (even in California). That's a significant benefit IMO.

We no longer carry the fridge in the galley. It's just too hot and the fridge has to work way too hard. If we leave the fridge at the campsite (when we take a hike, for example), the fridge goes in the cabin not the galley. Much better air circulation in the cabin and the ambient temp is much lower than in the galley.

I don't know anything about the Ecoflow, but glad GZ has some competition.

I do know someone who has a business of installing batteries in campers, and he did a big, beautiful Airstream job recently (including rooftop solar and LiIon).

There isn't a lot of extra room in our TDs to put batteries. There is the existing battery space and some space under/next to the sink. Or you could eliminate some kitchen or other storage. Expense is really the only reason not to use LiIon. If you have a fridge and intend to camp (boondocked) for more than a few days, the only solution is LiIon or a gasoline-generator (unless you have good exposure for solar and have a big enough panel). But I completely understand why someone would ditch the fridge and just buy a nice cooler and lots of ice. You can buy a lifetime of ice for the amount it cost to have a LiIon battery setup in the TD. Of course, that doesn't solve the CPAP problem, nor does it recharge yor iPhone and camera....

Battery management is a PITA, but it's LESS of a PITA if you have LiIon. But is that PITA worth $10K to eliminate?......

-Al
 
ps I haven't found the 12V charger for the GZYeti, and I'm assuming there won't be one.

pps You also need a long cable lock for the GZYeti, so you can lock it down while you are away. Too easy for these things to walk away.

pps The portable battery also is useful if you are in bear country and need to put your fridge into the bear box. Most places with bears still allow you to leave a fridge inside your camper, but in some places you will want to put your fridge into the bear box, and you then need a power source in the bear box.
 
Good points on the bear box and chasing the sun with it and the panel. I've seen vids of bears tipping over a dumpster. I'd hate for them to mistake the 560 for a dumpster and have a go at it, with detectable food inside.

The good thing about the Ecoflow is that it is smaller than a GZ of comparable capacity. Even these two larger units (they're both still only 15 x 10 x 8 'ish) can probably find a home somewhere in the trailer or the TV. Might have been a typo in your previous post, but they're only $770 and $900 at the moment. Less than what I paid ($CDN, admittedly) for my 412 Wh.

The Outback automatically kills power to the 12V outlets when shut off, so in my case there's no danger of draining the TV battery while running the cooler. Only in forgetting to plug the Dometic back into the Lithium or the trailer 12V once you're stopped for any length of time. I did run the Dometic entirely on the Lithium this past weekend, for 3 full days, at 35F inside and an average outside temp of 60F. And it only took the battery down to 80% of its capacity. So I can't argue with the efficiency in the pairing of the two units.
 
I've been in a 560 when a bear shook me awake looking for food . . . That's another story ;)

This Ecoflow looks sweet. If I didn't already own a GZ Yeti, I'd be all over this. Battery technology is advancing by leaps and bounds - we're so close . . . . .

Hopefully when I need to replace my TD battery, we'll have a suitable replacement for <$400 that allows for a solid week of boon docking in same footprint (and maybe even runs that AC for a few hours ;)
 
We are close. In the very near future something like this could entirely replace and greatly surpass the deep cycle marine battery in the trailer. And at the same time make redundant all the current electrical peripherals, like charge controllers and a TriMetric, and their accompanying wiring. With very little, or no, weight, space or cost penalty. And a huge upside in simplicity of design and construction of the trailer. And you'd have a very handy appliance/power source for things besides the trailer, when you're not travelling.

I'd be surprised if Camp-Inn aren't already vaguely noodling what a future re-design around a small-sized high-capacity, portable/removable multi-faceted lithium "generator" might look like. Something like a 12V and A/C plug'n'play bay where the right side cupboard now is. My 412 Wh lithium already has the ability to power all the 12V systems of the trailer, nearly simultaneously. We can't be far off.
 
Follow-up: My 412 Wh River Lithium 'pony' battery has been discontinued. And is quite possibly unsupported by the company. (You pays yer money, you takes yer chances). There's no other similar-sized battery on their site. It looks like Ecoflow has taken their start-up tech chops and moved on to the really big, expensive and slightly heavier stuff, to provide an alternative to gas generators. Most likely they couldn't compete with the cheap Chinese small lithium market and wanted to try their hand at something more lucrative.

However, I've had zero issues with it so far. And it has provided flexibility for the Dometic and other devices, both in and out of the trailer, and in the TV while parked. Between recharges from the car, the solar panel, and the post.

Knowing that it can provide "emergency" power back in to the trailer's 12V system also has been a nice bit of insurance.
 
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